| Alec: this war might have been wrong to start, but it would be irresponsible to end it without winning. we should withdraw when the iraqi government has managed to end insurgency and bring peace and democracy to the country. it's too early for a timetable, |
| Sam B: Define "winning." |
| Sam B: I thought we were "winning." I thought the surge was working. |
| Liz: For the sake of argument, winning a battle is not the same as winning a war. That's the difference between the surge working and "winning." |
| Old Timer: I agree with Sam. |
| John Rose: Unlike a real war, there will never be an official "end" or "victory" to the violence in Iraq. There are no armies to surrender to us or leaders to sign agreements. The definition of "winning" then, depends on what level of violence is acceptable. |
| RalphA: To establish democracy in Iraq will take a couple of generations. Peace is unlikely. It will be a question of what level of violence is acceptable. Then the question will be, should we go back in after a few months when the level of violence goes |
| Russmor: Ralph: Iraq has the possibility of peace as does every country in the world however I will agree that it is unlikely at any point in the near future. However achieving this peace is not our responsibility. There are many who could argue we should hel |
| Sam B: What does everyone think about Prime Minister Maliki's recent statement that he thinks a troop pullout in 16 months sounds about right? |
| Liz: I mean, he would know. |
| GUARDIAN247: 1. "Peace" a level considered by many military service members can be defined as the ability to conduct business, practice religion, walk down a street without being targeted by a militia or insurgency group, vote in a presidential election without b |
| GUARDIAN247: 2. Peace in Iraq is America's obligation. We invaded, we dethroned their dictator, we decimated their armed forces; in the process destroyed countless crops, livestock, homes, business, etc. Therefore, as a world power, THE World Power, we have an ob |
| GUARDIAN247: Dang...not enough room |
| GUARDIAN247: I believe he was referring to "combat arms" pulling out and leaving the supporting elements in place to an extent. Who knows? This was fun. Questions? |
| GUARDIAN247: Trust me, not all politicians are as good public speakers as they are commanders. Pulling the troops out completely...he more than likely didn't mean it to sound that way because they do need a continuance of training and education militarily. I'm su |
| GUARDIAN247: 4. In reply to the question about President Maliki....oh, wait....a president and not a dictator? Plus one for the US in their surge. Back to the subject though, maybe he said what he said or meant something else. |
| GUARDIAN247: All a regular civilian like many of yourselves will have to worry about is "How hot are the Cinna-bons today?" Burger King is great over there I hear. |
| GUARDIAN247: Try walking around downtown Baghdad or even take a commercial flight into Baghdad International and you won't have to worry about a flak-jacket or a rifle. |
| GUARDIAN247: Today, there's less than 1000 left. CNN won't report it, neither will FoxNews, but BBC sure loves it, and so does the rest of Iraq. |
| GUARDIAN247: c. In reply to "I thought the surge was working:" Well, bless your soul, it is. AQI had a force as strong as 12,000 house-hiding, IED-making, baby-killing thugs. |
| GUARDIAN247: They'll tell you that tax dollars and US support brought about a boom throughout the world that not only signified the nuclear age, but the advancement in medicinal studies, computer technology, clean-energy production, robotics, satellite technology |
| GUARDIAN247: Did we support Germany in rebuilding them? You bet your bottom we did. We rebuilt Japan too, just ask the US Dept of Treasury...ask Microsoft, ask any airline mfg co or ship-building company. |
| GUARDIAN247: b. All of these nations, I must say, are doing quite well for themselves with our presence and support in rebuilding their nations. |
| GUARDIAN247: Staying in Iraq for 100 years, not such a bad thing...how long have troops been in Germany? Japan? The Phillippines, etc. |
| GUARDIAN247: a. Operation Iraqi Freedom: Yes, Iraq is free...but our committment, and our promise to the Iraqis to help them become a stable nation is never-ending. |
| GUARDIAN247: The truth is, certain terrorist organizations are constantly planning, constantly attacking, constantly being defeated, and constantly regrouping. This is a problem due to the nature of their organization. I suggest reading more about their "Cells" a |
| GUARDIAN247: Regarding the War on Terror, I think we're doing a pretty bang-up job regardless of the minute hiccups here and there. |
| GUARDIAN247: It's a war that we've fought many battles against opponents uniformed and not. The US Military has fought these battles with the aide of many different agencies, entities, and governments throughout the world. |
| GUARDIAN247: 3. "Winning". True, you can never tell the US Troops that a clear "End" to the war is in sight because we are not calling it the Global War in Iraq. It's called the Global War on Terrorism. |
| GUARDIAN247: Therefore, as a world power, THE World Power, we have an obligation to bring about the end of an unstable generation. |
| GUARDIAN247: 2. Peace in Iraq is America's obligation. We invaded, we dethroned their dictator, we decimated their armed forces; in the process destroyed countless crops, livestock, homes, business, etc. |
| GUARDIAN247: 1. "Peace" a level considered by many military service members can be defined as the ability to conduct business, practice religion, walk down a street without being targeted by a militia or insurgency group, vote in a presidential election without b |
| Liz: So what's your opinion on Maliki calling for a rough schedule for US troop withdrawals? |
| Liz: (Also, the posting character limit should be gone now.) |
| Old Timer: No, it's not too early for a time table. More troops are needed in Afghanistan to fight the real enemy. These cannot be found until we begin to release troops from Iraq. "Winning" as far as the U.S. is concerned is a much bigger issue than bringi |
| Jed Bartlet: Can someone please teach John McCain some Latin? "Post hoc ergo propter hoc"... a logical fallacy, "after it therefore because of it." Just because the drop in violence came after the surge doesn't mean it was because of ONLY the surge. |
| Al V: The time is ripe for a time table and necessary. Our focus should be on Afghanistan, where the real struggle is taking place. |
| Al V: Disagree. We need a time table now if for no other reason to make it possible to shift some forces to Afghanistan, where the real threat to our security has been all along. Even the Iraqi government, such as it is, is not opposed to early pullout. |
| Bob Johnson: It should be noted: The United States is not at war. Neither the president, nor the media, can declare war. Yes, as with Korea and Vietnam, we are in costly armed conflicts, but these are endeavors to fill the coffers of the "military-industrial (-media-oil) complex" (MIMOC). Follow the money to see who supports McCain and the GOP. Realize the TM after Global War on Terror(ism) is just that. |
| Bob Johnson: Jed, no one can teach McCain anything. He is simply too old to change. Not even the Rove-trained consultants sent in to rescue him from the Lime Jello backdrop can succeed. Didn't you just love his dry goods presser backdrop, reading from a card about the price of milk, and the obvious GOP hack? Even better, he pontificates in front of the Fudge Haus. |
| WLS: The only "can't teach him anything" in this election is Obama. He still doesn't think the surge in Iraq worked or that he was wrong. He can't admit that he could be wrong. He made up his mind about Iraq before he when thwere. But, even he admits that we are at war, Bob Johnson has his head in the sand.WLS |
| Jed Bartlet: WLS, that's one of the more bizarre talking-point regurgitations I've ever heard. First off, Obama had been on numerous trips to Iraq and Afghanistan before, not since 2006 if I remember. In any case, are we to suppose you can't have an opinion without having been there? How come you have an opinion? |
| Al V: I disagree -- a timetable is exactly what we need, so that we can begin to do the right things in Afghanistan and elsewhere in that area. |
| Michael Noir: I just want to know where Osama Bin Laden is? Can anyone answer this? It seems as though this legislation has lost site of the reason we're on this Terror hunt in the first place, Tuesday September 11th 2001! Last that I checked it was President Bush that vowed to find him no matter what? How easy was it for them to shift the focus of our fear and anger to Iraq? I'm just curious, because I remember when McCain first spoke out in support of the war he said that it would be a quick victory, we'd "wipe em out!" No he's changed to a tune of "I always said we would be in for the long haul"... Interesting... |
| blondehussy: I find it interesting that we are one of the few countries in the world that consider being "old" is to be senile. Take a good look at Churchill or Golda Mier. I have always thought that life experience was a very good teacher. |
| skptk: Agree with you Jed. It seems to me the results have a lot more to do with Petraus and his anti-insurgency tactics, ie., enlisting Sunni's and using them against Al Quaeda. While this is working to defeat the terrorists, it could prove to be a double edged sword down the road, as far as sectarian problems go. |
| deb: IF ANYONE CAN HEAR OR SEE-JOHN MCCAIN,THIS AFTERNOON WAS "PRETENDING" TO BE PRESIDENT ALREADY- WHO IS GOING TO JUMP ON THAT???I CAN'T BELIEVE CNN ACTUALLY AIRED HIS WAR MONGERING FOR AS LONG AS THEY DID.WHO DOES JOHN MCCAIN THINK HE IS??HE IS JUST LIKE GEORGE A.I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHAT HE THINKS THE U.S.A. IS GOING TO DO MILITARILY TO HELP GEORGIA!!!ALL OUR MEN AND WOMEN ARE FIGHTING A LOSING BATTLE IN IRAQ, THANKS TO HIM AND HIS BUDDIES!THEY ARE EITHER HURT OR EXHAUSTED AND NEED TO COME HOME TO THEIR FAMILIES- NOT BE INVOLVED WITH ANOTHER WAR!!!JOHN MCCAIN NEEDS TO GO BACK TO ARIZONA AND...RETIRE!!!! |
| Zeke: Obama doesn't need to "admit to being wrong" on the surge because only time will tell if it has worked. Decreased violence in itself is no indicator and it's too early to tell whether significant, lasting process has been made. Westmoreland was talking about leaving Vietnam a year after we increased our presence there 20x in 2 years... because it seemed to be working. It wasn't. No amount of US troops in Iraq will solve the problem; this issue requires soft power and diplomacy - something which McCain sorely lacks. |
| Zeke: Oh, and as a disclaimer, I was interpreting "surge as a success" as whether or not it has had a lasting impact beyond the temp. increase in US troops. It's shortsighted and self-congratulatory to say the surge has succeeded if the sole deciding factor is a decrease in violence, since obviously a larger US force will be better able to clamp down on violence. Whether or not that decrease in violence is permanent, or (especially) allows for political gains, is the true measure of success... |
| Willis Diller: I sort of agree with the argument that we are partly responsible for the mess that is Iraq. However, that doesn't mean I support an open-ended stay in Iraq. Too many of our troops have paid the price. I, as an ex serviceman don't want us where we shouldn't be. We need to make clear that we will be leaving soon and that the Iraqi's will have to find their own solution. It may be the breaking up of Iraq so that each of the main three groups can go their own ways. Whatever happens it should be their problem. If the revolution against Saddam had been by Iraqis they would be in a better place now. It wasn't. |
| XxAznAngelxX: i think mccain just changes his opinions just a bit too much tht all.... |
| XxAznAngelxX: I think A LOT of people know this fact and everything...but since many people and Bush were sooo focused on the war and stuff, it caused the economy to go down a lot, rite? and because of tht, it caused a lot of changes and caused soo many ppl to lose their jobs and now, I no lots of ppl hu dont hav jobs now....so i dont rly like the idea of keeping the troopers in Iraq....and i also personally dont like john mccain much.... |
| 87GN: McCain changes his opinion too much? On what? |
| 87GN: For what it's worth, I spent a year in Fallujah. Well, 11 months. Anbar - the province that Fallujah and Ramadi are in - was just handed over to the Iraqis. When I was there, we received intelligence reports that Al-Qaida in Iraq was making Anbar and more specifically Fallujah their main effort. My job at the time was as a Navy Corpsman providing medical support for a Marine VIP security team. Most of the time we escorted the commanding officer of all Marine troops in the Fallujah area. He had a lot of secret middle of the night talks with local tribal leaders. He convinced them that AQ was the enemy, not us. |
| 87GN: Soon after, nearly all the tribes turned on AQ and violence fell dramatically. This organization of tribes was known as the Al-Anbar Awakening Council. The movement has now spread across the country and is known as the Sons of Iraq. |
| 87GN: We showed the Iraqi people that we were their allies, not their enemies. We were very careful about who and when we fought and how we responded to attacks so as to minimize civilian casualties. I myself treated several injured Iraqis. Now a new generation of Iraqis - as well as the tribal leaders who have so much influence - see us as benevolent, not malevolent. The turnover of Anbar is proof that our strategy is working. In the first half of our tour, we all would have laughed at anyone who said Anbar could be turned over to the Iraqis. Now it is reality. |
| 87GN: So we've made such amazing gains not be threatening the Iraqis that we will leave if they don't get their act together - which would be a horrible mistake with Arab people, they don't respond to such things as Westerners do - but by supporting THEIR efforts and showing them that we would like to return control of their land to their people, but only when they are ready. |
| violette: I believe everyone should read Michael Salzer's "Just and Unjust Wars". You help the failed state to help themselves, and then you give them back the power. It creates a sense of national unity. The war was based on lies, manipulations, and personal agendas and perpetuating our involvement beyond the most basic of aid does nothing to create a sovereign nation or build a sense of Iraqi self-reliance. |
| Mlynne: it's funny because everyone is talking about the war itself without giving much thought to those who were there. if we say that the war was a mistake, we are only disgracing everyone who have given their lives to it. but by focusing on the benefits of the war and the progress we have made with iraq, we honor those who have lost their lives in the process. anyone fighting there in iraq would agree. |
| Mlynne: they are proud to have been a part of it. and we must also remember that they went willingly. there is no draft, remember? |
| Lyndon: i say we pull our troops out and bomb them until they give up! we dont' need our troops over there anymore |
| rashauna: i say poeple need to come home to their lives and families. they are wasting their time over in Iraq and them loosing their lives aren't as important as getting oil. |
| tmaki16: If we pull out of iraq there is that possibility of the war coming onto the homeland... who wants that? |
| Keisha Michelle Williams: Its President Bush's fault for annoying his men for not listening to them when they reported back to him that Salem had nothing to do with the attack on Sept. 11, 2001, then he declared that this war should start, and that was wrong. He doesn't care about us Americans, as long as his own kids are not over there dying. I vote all the way for Obama. |
| 1Sgt: I would like to know, just for my knowledge. How many of the folks writting on this page have been in Iraq? |
| 1Sgt: Someone please explain to me how we can give a time table to pullout? As a solider that is like telling the enemy when to attack? |
| gettothechoppa: Only way to solve this is a complete, and total withdraw. almost 50% of jihad members comes from other countries because we are there, which means by even being there we are making the entire situation worse, we need to get out |
| looknostamp: What exactly do we believe we will "Win" in this war... it's very unclear. |
| boris: i say just blow em all up so we dont have any more problems! |
| Cappy: What hasn't McCain changed his position on? First he was a deregulator. Now, he wants to start the MFI to control the SEC and REGULATE it. Hw thought we shpuldn't bail out these companies, but then he forgot his base is conservative, so he has to support the bigwigs on Wall Street. I,too, am a veteran who spent a year in both Afghanistan and Iraq. That doens't make me an expert on war, nor does it make any other veteran so, including John McCain. If he "knows how to win this war," and "find Bin Laden," just tell us. You don't see Obama waiting until Jan 20 to give us his plans. He gave a 6 point plan for the economy already. |
| Cappy: 1SG, with all due respect, don't announce it then. Just bring them home, now. Then, you won't have enemies waiting on the roads. Come on, Top, how in the world would we ever bring home our troops if that is what we are worried about? We sent them in there with them waiting on us, didn't we? We can bring them home the same way. I drove the long road from Basra to Mosul, not knowing if there was an ambush or IED. We can get them out. McCain wants to pullout and leave noncombat forces there when Iraq is "stable." So then, the enemy could go wipe out those troops on the way out. That is just an excuse. |
| Cappy: And those that think that talking and questioning whether or not the war was the right one does dishonor to those who have fought, not the other way around. Our troops are honorable and fought when they were called upon. But we have to hold our leaders accountable and let them know that they cannot send our trrops to fight a wrong war. THAT is supporting our troops. We fight here for them. We fight and question and speak out so that they are not sent purposely to a war they didn't need to fight. But you are right that we must never forget about those that are there. |
| Cappy: And Guardian, those "minute hiccups" have cost us over 4100 American lives and hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians. So I don't know how serious your hiccups are, but the ones over there are pretty bad. And peace in Iraq is IRAQ's responsibility. What are you going to do, hold a gun to their heads until they are peaceful? What if France hadn't left us until we were "stable?" Par le vous Francais? You can't compare them to Japan and Germany, because they are different. Just like this war is different. |
| Cappy: McCain wants a comprehensive 9-11 Commission type report for the economy so "we can prevent it from happening again." This is the great leader? So in battle, he would stop in the middle of an ambush and do an After Action Review so that we don't fall into traps again? We are in a crisis. We need leadership, not reports and polls. Obama is a leader who will take charge of the economy and the war and will bring both crises to an end. |
| KME: i think that our entering irag was at the time a good idea because we had to prove that our country is not weak but bush should not have left us over there so long just because of oil. i am behind McCain all the way |
| Cappy: So we should invade countries just to prove we are not weak?? Yeah, you would be behind McCain "all the way." That is just as stupid as those other people saying we should just bomb all those countries. |
| Cappy: We had already responded to the terrorist action by attacking them where they were, Afghanistan. |
| razel91: hello |
| razel91: ? |
| bri_2311: ahh |
| shut up: you guys are losers |
| shut up: fsadfsaf |
| tmaki16: isnt lassieze faire still supposed to be going on? like no govt involvement? whats the govt doing buying the banks? |
| Snape13: the govt was bein stupid! I'ts all about money not the people. Obama wants to do all of these great things that will help us but to help us he is going to tax the crap out of us! |
| Alexa: Yes, he'll tax the crap out of you if you make over 250,000 a year and can afford it. The whole idea is that our middle class is disappearing because of certain tax breaks and the failing economy. Levying taxes on those who make more income makes sense. |
| Nicegirl101: Yeah i agree with Alexa but i think that either way, one of them is going to die. Cuz some people don't want a black person president. But McCain is pretty old to be a president too. |
| boris: it shouldnt matter if McCain is old or if Obama is black. they are doing what they think is best for the country. i would still vote McCain. |
| Sunkissed046: Nobody won anything in this selfish deployment of our sons and daughters. They need to be brought home |
| mmthompson: The only reason I would support the war ever, was to end the dictatorship. We did that, and it would be irresponsible to leave the country in shambles but they have the money to repair the damage. I think the only reason we should still be there is to train their military. We don't need that many troops there to train their military. |
| boris: but what about the other terrorists? |
| Shii: Terrorism is NOT A MAJOR PROBLEM! It's an excuse to spy on Americans! |
| pj12345: vote obama |
| pj12345: because mccain is going to waste money we could use to build up our economy and instead using it for iraq when our econony is about to crash |
| JoJo Dancer: Alec....Please explained winning the war!!!!! There is no winning |
| JoJo Dancer: The whole war was a LIE!! We were after Bin Liar but where is he??? No one is or was ever looking for Bin liar!! The war was to throw all you stupid Americans off and it worked!!! We had to attack someone right?? I mean we were attacked!!! That would be like some man attacking and killing my brother so I decide to go beat the crap out of a 10 year old and say it was all his fault!!! Look at the war for what it is and what it was really about!!!!!!!!!!!!! We have been getting GI's killed and killing the innocent!! Deal with the truth!! Deat with that!! |
| Someone: What is all this bull shit..........The war is bullshit,its not even a war...Our troops are risking their lives and killing innocent lives there..The whole thing with Iraq started with Saddam..and umm Hes dead !!What the eff else is being done in Iraq , its not our country,they are doing nothing to us and plus they are too weak !! We have no place there !! So basically there is NO WAR !! |
| jdc: Obama rocks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
| anthony1234: Sam why would you say winning in the batttle in Iraq please answer that. |
| patrick123: really |
| adamXcore: Most of the people posting on this forum really have no idea what the fuck they are talking about. You people should go read a book or something... and yes I said YOU PEOPLE hahahahahahaha |
| adamXcore: Drew Studer is homosexual xD |
| adamXcore: Oh, wait nvm xD that's Ned Macelfresh |
| paulie95 : Hi |
| paulie95 : Hi |
| paulie95 : sup |
| paulie95 : sup |
| paulie95 : we should blow up iraq |
| paulie95 : we should blow up iraq |
| ToasterGlove: After the WMD justification for war fell through, we stated our goal was to establish a sovereign, democratic Iraq. We have done that. Now, that very government wants us out of their country. Either we leave and back up our words with action, or we stop adding hypocrisy to our ambition and explain our true motives.Finally, regarding the election, if you want to talk about having good judgment for foreign policy issues, there can be no argument against the simple fact that John McCain supported this disastrous war from the beginning while Barack Obama opposed it. |
